Darts Tourney

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Darts Tourney

Postby K4VD » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:42 pm

This discussion started on Yahoo group. It is placed here for further development.

From Dan KC5GXL:
hehehe;

Interesting thread! Why not score it like darts 501? Everyone starts
with say, 1000 points and you work down to Zero points. The object
would be to see how many skcc members one can work to get exactly
zero. The one who uses the most members, that actually decrease the
total score, wins.

IE: It might take 20 members to get down to 40 points, then to reach
zero points it may take 3 or 4 members. Of course if you work someone
who is 41, that contact doesn't count.

Whatcha all think?

Have fun with this one.

73,

Dan Harriman
Orange, Texas


From Kevin K4VD:
Dan... what an interesting idea. A contest based on 301. Would we have to double in and double out? ;) Can a team concept be applied?

In this case, I think Detrick is proposing an awards program similar to Centurion and Tribune. But I think your idea of an SKCC Darts tournement (contest) might be developed into something very fun an interesting. I hope this idea develops.

Another group (070 Club) has a contest based on golf. I tried coming up with something similar but with a bowling theme but haven't had any success yet. Actually, I prefer darts to bowling.

Kev K4VD


From Don NN8B:
Assign values in a random drawing based on past participants in the SKS.


From Kevin K4VD:
Hmm. Don't know. Could the last two digits of the SKCC number be used?

My score sheet:

301 632
269 2500 (bullseye)
219 3
216 299
117 616
101 2549
52 25
27 365
bust 305
22 2711
11 811
0


Date/time order is important.

00 (such as 2500) would be a bullseye worth 50 points.

Note I ended with double 11's. Now that's with 101, it would be a bit longer with 301. Or maybe stay with 101 and just use the last digit of the SKCC number? But the last two scores must be a duplicate (for the double). If we work 2-person teams, each match might be shorter. If it is a true tournament, we would have to have players/team register. Then we could have teams play each other at a certain starting time (maybe this is a weekend thing?). The winning team (first to reach zero) in a match moves on to the next round.

I'm just rambling here. No serious thought put into it yet. I'm actually stealing Dan's idea but this sounds to me like it could be a blast. Maybe even have a trophy for the winning team. Make it an annual event.

Kev K4VD
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Re: Darts Tourney

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:37 pm

K4VD wrote:This discussion started on Yahoo group. It is placed here for further development.

From Dan KC5GXL:
hehehe;

Interesting thread! Why not score it like darts 501? Everyone starts
with say, 1000 points and you work down to Zero points. The object
would be to see how many skcc members one can work to get exactly
zero. The one who uses the most members, that actually decrease the
total score, wins.

IE: It might take 20 members to get down to 40 points, then to reach
zero points it may take 3 or 4 members. Of course if you work someone
who is 41, that contact doesn't count.

Whatcha all think?




A couple of general considerations:

The purpose of a contest is to maximize the participation and number of QSOs. Does countdown scoring do this?

Also, if I need your points (however assigned) but you don't need mine, how will that work? Usually in a QSO contest both stations benefit from the contact but that won't be the case when everyone is looking for different point values.

73,
Drew
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Postby K4VD » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:55 pm

Howdy Drew:

I see this as a slightly different concept from the normal contest. Think of it more as a sports event where you have players competing and fans watching. The difference here is, the fans help determine the winners.

I know this isn't the way an on-air event usually goes. That might be part of the charm.

The two advantages to the fan are 1) fun watching the progress of the darts teams (maybe even some side bets!) and 2) it is another SKCC contact for them.

301 is a standard darts game (forgive me if I'm stating the obvious). One of the challenges is doubling out. You can't win unless you get a double which exactly equals the points left. For example if you are at 32 you'd need to get a double 16 to check out. This could be two SKCC members with their numbers ending in 16. Let's say I got a 7 instead. That leaves me with 32 - 7 = 25 points. I would have to get an odd number to set me up for a check out again. This could go all the way down to 2 (where a double 1 is required to check out). Not uncommon for a not-so-skilled darts player.

Again, rambling.

Do you think an on-air sports event like this would have some interest?
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SKCC Darts Tourney

Postby KC2EGL » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:21 pm

I think this would be a blast. I would like to add my $.02 worth. You can only work each member ONCE in each round.
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Postby nn8b » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:23 pm

This could lead to an entire new way to contest. Have real time scoring so the first to reach 0 wins. Use Googles online spreadsheet that would be open to all and every time you make a contact enter the numbers in real time.

Now how do I get a ton80?

73,
Don, NN8B
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Postby Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:00 am

K4VD wrote:Howdy Drew:

I see this as a slightly different concept from the normal contest. Think of it more as a sports event where you have players competing and fans watching. The difference here is, the fans help determine the winners.

I know this isn't the way an on-air event usually goes. That might be part of the charm.

The two advantages to the fan are 1) fun watching the progress of the darts teams (maybe even some side bets!) and 2) it is another SKCC contact for them.

301 is a standard darts game (forgive me if I'm stating the obvious). One of the challenges is doubling out. You can't win unless you get a double which exactly equals the points left. For example if you are at 32 you'd need to get a double 16 to check out. This could be two SKCC members with their numbers ending in 16. Let's say I got a 7 instead. That leaves me with 32 - 7 = 25 points. I would have to get an odd number to set me up for a check out again. This could go all the way down to 2 (where a double 1 is required to check out). Not uncommon for a not-so-skilled darts player.

Again, rambling.

Do you think an on-air sports event like this would have some interest?



I don't know. It's pretty interesting but kind of vague to me how the specific darts-type scoring would actually work out.

Wouldn't you almost have to have a computer by the rig, in order to look up someone's number before contacting them?

What happens if I want to contact you for your points, but you don't want mine? Say, you know that all you need to do is contact W1DV the next time he comes on, in order to double out; but a QSO with me would screw that up? See, I'm not sure that the process maximizes activity.

The doubling out process might take pretty long: there are only 30 SKCC members total (in 3000) whose numbers end in a specific two-digit number. The members with xx01 numbers might turn out to be pretty popular.

The kind of event I'd like to see is a communications contest of some sort, where some non-trivial information (perhaps unpredictable, yet verifyable) gets passed to many participants in some kind of relay fashion... Well, you can see, that's pretty vague too...

73,
Drew
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dart tourney

Postby kc5gxl » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:44 am

I just think it would be neat if every one was in the game. I don't see a problem with using the last two numbers of the players skcc number as the exchange. IE: My number is 647, so 47 would be the exchange, such as DT (dart tourney) 47. Subtract that from the previous score and get the current score. Maybe only use numbers up to 20. For instance, my number would be 7 instead of 47, but someone whose number ends with 18 would count as 18. Like Kevin mentioned, numbers ending in '00' would count as a bullseye and 50 points or whatever.

Maybe we wouldn't have to double out to win. I think that the final number must equal zero, though. If a number is needed by one operator, but his number is not needed by the other op, then of course only one will get a number they can use.

We have the same thing right now with the new Tribune award. I am still working on my centurian number, but if someone is looking for an skcc number with a 'c' behind it, will that keep the other op from having a qso with me? I certainly hope not.

I think that a live scoreboard would be great, if it could logistically be worked out. Maybe the tourney could run for a weekend, or maybe a week? if needed. The person or team with the shortest time between his first logged contact and his last would win. The winner of course wouldn't be announced until after the tourney was ended, however long we decide to run it. That way everyone would have an equal chance to win.

I don't see a problem having teams either. I am not sure how to work that out, but it would still be fun. I don't see a problem with only a few working at a time, either, but it does seem a bit counter productive to me.

Those are just some of my thoughts. Hope we can get this thing off the ground. It sure does soound like a lot of fun.

73, Dan Harriman
Orange, Texas

Whatever is decided, I think it would be a lot of fun.
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Re: dart tourney

Postby Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:14 pm

kc5gxl wrote:I just think it would be neat if every one was in the game. I don't see a problem with using the last two numbers of the players skcc number as the exchange. IE: My number is 647, so 47 would be the exchange, such as DT (dart tourney) 47. Subtract that from the previous score and get the current score. Maybe only use numbers up to 20. For instance, my number would be 7 instead of 47, but someone whose number ends with 18 would count as 18. Like Kevin mentioned, numbers ending in '00' would count as a bullseye and 50 points or whatever.

Maybe we wouldn't have to double out to win. I think that the final number must equal zero, though. If a number is needed by one operator, but his number is not needed by the other op, then of course only one will get a number they can use.

We have the same thing right now with the new Tribune award. I am still working on my centurian number, but if someone is looking for an skcc number with a 'c' behind it, will that keep the other op from having a qso with me? I certainly hope not.

I think that a live scoreboard would be great, if it could logistically be worked out. Maybe the tourney could run for a weekend, or maybe a week? if needed. The person or team with the shortest time between his first logged contact and his last would win. The winner of course wouldn't be announced until after the tourney was ended, however long we decide to run it. That way everyone would have an equal chance to win.

I don't see a problem having teams either. I am not sure how to work that out, but it would still be fun. I don't see a problem with only a few working at a time, either, but it does seem a bit counter productive to me.

Those are just some of my thoughts. Hope we can get this thing off the ground. It sure does soound like a lot of fun.

73, Dan Harriman
Orange, Texas

Whatever is decided, I think it would be a lot of fun.


These seem like good ideas, especially not announcing the winner till the event is over.

I think you would want to exchange the entire SKCC number though (to make it an official SKCC contact), just leave it up to the participants to figure out what the last digit or two is according to the rules. That would allow for unwitting participants-- members who aren't playing in the tourney but would still be able to be collected by tourney participants for points.

Countdown scoring is self-limiting: once you have collected your points you are finished, wheter the event is over or not. Yes, you could continue to make contacts to help others get their points but the competitive hunting is just not there once you have reached your goal. Of course, the amount of activity can be controlled by setting an appropriate target score: 301, 501, etc. The higher the score, the more activity.

If you set a high enough score you could use the full last two digits: 00-99 instead of 00-20.

However you do it, I would try to make the use of a computer by participants unnecessary as far as possible. I wouldn't want to have to be looking up people's numbers to figure out which one to contact.

73,
Drew
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Postby K4VD » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:45 pm

Agreed, the whole number would need to be traded though only the last two digits would count for the score.

Unfortunately, for something like this to work especially if we do the team concept, a computer would be required. You and your teammate would have to coordinate your scores. An option could be that each team member works from 301 down and the first team to submit a score of zero wins. Again, this would need at least email access as timing can be critical. The score keeper (the one receiving the email) would keep track of the times received to determine the winning team. Another option is to have the score sheet on a website. I could easily do something like that on my site. But it all leads to having a computer handy.

The thing about the score of 20 is that that is how a dart board is set up. Of course, the dart board has regions where the score is doubled or tripled. Also there is a single bull (25 points) and double bull (50 points). But we could simplify it to 1-20 and double bull for the purposes of this tournement.

When I get a little time I'll try to put some graphics up on my site to show the ladder (for scoring) and some other details.

To Dan's comments...

For the first round, for everyone that forms a 2-ham team they can participate. Each round eliminates 1/2 the players until the final match to determine the winner of the tourney. This is the ladder I was referring to. Kind of like March Madness.
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Postby af2z » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:46 pm

K4VD wrote:The thing about the score of 20 is that that is how a dart board is set up. Of course, the dart board has regions where the score is doubled or tripled. Also there is a single bull (25 points) and double bull (50 points). But we could simplify it to 1-20 and double bull for the purposes of this tournement.



Well, there are 50 unique score values on a dartboard, excluding the two bulls. That could map evenly with the 100 possibilities for the last two digits of the SKCC number.

Or, since you are using computer scoring anyway, calculate the points value from the SKCC number using modulus as follows:

MOD( SKCC#, 52 )

Then assign each of the 52 possibilities to a unique dart throw point value.

73,
Drew
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Postby K4VD » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:52 pm

Hmmm, and maybe use K9SKC for a bullseye?
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Postby af2z » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:57 pm

af2z wrote:Well, there are 50 unique score values on a dartboard, excluding the two bulls. That could map evenly with the 100 possibilities for the last two digits of the SKCC number.



Whoops! Not 52 score values on a dartboard, but 43. So scratch that suggestion.

And change "MOD(SKCC#,52)" to MOD(SKCC#,43).

73,
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Postby K4VD » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:08 pm

There is 1 through 20, then double and triple (=60 so far). Then there's the bull and double bull. 62 unique values?

But I was ignoring the doubles and triples. To double out, you'd have to get the same score twice. If they are ignored, then there are 21 (1-20 + bullseye) on the board.

Are we thinking of the same board?
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Postby nn8b » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:12 pm

Shouldn't there be 60 count spaces plus the 2 bulls?

The outer ring is doubles.
The small mid ring is triples.
All other space from inside the outer ring to the outer bull ring is singles.
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Dart tourney

Postby kc5gxl » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:14 pm

Howdy all;

We could use double and triple points by using member numbers as doubles/triple of the basic numbers. IE: a number ending with 57 would count as triple 19, and number 40 would be double 20 etc.

The skcc club call could count as a double bullseye, maybe? Hve different members use the call for propagation purposes.

Just more thoughts,

73,

Dan
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Postby af2z » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:31 pm

K4VD wrote:There is 1 through 20, then double and triple (=60 so far). Then there's the bull and double bull. 62 unique values?

But I was ignoring the doubles and triples. To double out, you'd have to get the same score twice. If they are ignored, then there are 21 (1-20 + bullseye) on the board.

Are we thinking of the same board?


Well, there are 62 spaces on the board but the values for some of the spaces are not unique. Here are the point values:

1 through 20 (that makes 20 possible throw values)
22, 24... 40 (the doubles, 10 more values)
21, 27, 33, 39, 42... then by 3's up to 60 (the triples: 11 score values in all)
2 bulls

(There is no 23-point space on the board, for instance.)

So, that makes 43 unique score values, if I didn't screw it up again.

73,
Drew
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Re: Dart tourney

Postby af2z » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:41 pm

kc5gxl wrote:Howdy all;

We could use double and triple points by using member numbers as doubles/triple of the basic numbers. IE: a number ending with 57 would count as triple 19, and number 40 would be double 20 etc.

The skcc club call could count as a double bullseye, maybe? Hve different members use the call for propagation purposes.

Just more thoughts,

73,

Dan



Oh, yeah... ok. Depending on the rules you would want to have each member representing either a unique point value or a unique dartboard space. If the latter, one station might be "10" and another station would be "double 5", both the same value. Depends on the rules regarding doubles & triples and how much like like dart scoring you want it to be.

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