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Credit for K1Y (discussion moved from the list)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:53 am
by K4VD
This topic has been moved from the main list.

Don't be concerned about me dropping dead. I'll make sure the latest log is with another member just in case! ;)

OK, let me try this again and hopefully we can find a solution to this problem or realize that there really isn't a problem.

I had always meant to give credit to a K1Y station for working another station. K1Y itself gets no credit at all. There is no individual K1Y entity.

If I receive a QSL card from you for a K1Y QSO that you worked as K1Y I match it up in the log and show QSL received. That gives you credit towards the sweep. I know that I worked K1Y/6. There is an entry in the K1Y log for K1Y/6 working K1Y/4 and a matching entry for K1Y/4 working K1Y/6. In both cases, I have recorded the operator in the OPERATOR field (not the CALL field) of the K1Y log. In this case, Gordon gets credit for working K1Y/4 and I get credit for working K1Y/8 towards the sweeps.

The only problem that I see is that the stats that I am generating do not take this into consideration. The stats are presented for your benefit, not mine. I do not show up for a sweep yet I have it and I will get a certificate.

An example:
1/22/2007 0024 K1Y/5 DANA 7.054 OP: W6UT ID: K1Y/6
1/22/2007 0230 K1Y/6 Dennis 7.054 OP: AD5VC ID: K1Y/6

THERE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM HERE... someone has the wrong time. I assume the QSLs you send me will have the time from your log which probably will not match up with the record from the K1Y operator you are trying to confirm. I cannot fix this, the original station operators must make the correction and submit it to me. However, I will notify you (as in this case) that there is an error. You can also check the online log to identify errors and ask the originator to correct it.

Another example:
1/6/2007 0036 K1Y/6 Gordon 7.05456 OP: K4VD ID: K1Y/4
1/6/2007 0032 K1Y/4 Kevin 7.05496 OP: N6WK ID: K1Y/4

No problems here. Both N6WK and K4VD get credit.

As for Centurion. I have nothing to do with that. The K1Y log is not used for it. The only log required for Centurion is the applicant's log. If Dana shows K1Y/6 and W6UT in his log when applying for Centurion (assuming he gets the above problem corrected) then I assume Gordon will give him credit for both QSOs.

If there are still questions, I would suggest we pull this topic out of the main list and work on it over in the forum under the 1st Anniversary Event project. I will copy this there to get a thread started.

Kev, K4VD

-----Original Message-----
From: [] On Behalf Of Dana Browne
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [skcc] Re: K1Y ops .. a question

I certainly hope my original post did not sound as though I was ready to take my marbles and go home. If it sounded like that, I apologize.

However, as Randy mentioned here, he had to go out and rework K1Y/7 to ensure credit for it because it did not show up. If I need to do that this weekend to complete my sweep, I want to schedule my time as K1Y/5 so that I have the opportunity to work towards sweeps on my time off by getting those missing K1Ys. I don't want to stop operation during my time as /5 to go wait in line on another K1Y station.. it isn't fair to the operator hoping to work /5 when I am on.

That is the only point I was making about K1Y/5 operation. There are three of us who have taken /5 recently, and we are already beginning to discuss how to divvy up the weekend so that it is on the air as much as possible. My post was to ask for clarification before I committ to time on the air.

Making Kevin generously offer to fix the logs also bothers me. He is going to drop dead from exhaustion at this rate. Kevin, if you are ever in the area, dinner is on me... even Commander's Palace if Creole is to your liking. You are doing yeoman's service as log gatherer/QSL manager and this whole club owes you a great debt.

--- rlb <> wrote:

> Same here, I used both calls on every contact. I
> worked a K1Y/7 as a K1Y/8 and also gave the AG8A call and number.
> Only the K1Y/7 appeared so I went out a different night and reworked
> the K1Y/7 as my home call and that went through. That settled that
> problem.
> I would like to thank Dana for being there as /5 as it was the last
> one needed.
> Randy
> AG8A
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: f_skinner <>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:33:23 PM
> Subject: [skcc] Re: K1Y ops .. a question
> Dana, if I understand this right you are doing it correctly. Since you
> are the op behind the key it is your contact. I did the same thing and
> gave out my info for each and every QSO just to make sure. 73 Frank
> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for
> Mobile. Get started.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yahoo! Groups Links

SKCC# 1555C
FISTS# 12296
FPQRP# 1309
This topic has been moved from the main list.

K1Y-K1y qsos

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:00 pm
by AD5VC

It seems to me, however, that if you give operators extra contacts in K1Y-K1Y contacts, based on the supplied log, then you are using a different set of rules than are normally required in SKCC contacts.

While the number of contacts that would be manufactured by your method is small, and clearly this is not a matter of nationl security, it just seems to me to be counter to the philosophy of this organization to be doing this. I also understand that it is a way of giving the ops running K1Y a payback for their time spent on the air.

Let me play devil's advocate here.

For SKCC exchanges for Centurion, for example, we ask that the QSO actually include an exchange of SKCC #. However, if your method is used, this is unnecessary. Any QSO that has a valid call sign and a RST exchanged should count as a SKCC qso if both ops are members. Why? Because all the other information (QTH/NAME) is available from databases (my logging software will supply it if I don't turn that feature off). SImilarly, SKCC#s can be downloaded and checked based on call signs. Therefore, why bother exchanging any info? Just the call sign and RST. And let's not bother with exchanging SKCC 00 on the K1Y exchanges, because everyone knows (from the internet) what the SKCC # will be. It's a waste of time...

Well, obviously we do more than that because we are trying to do more than the average DX or contest exchange. So I turn off my automatic feature and actually copy the information, and I copy the SKCC number on air because this is not about saying you made a contact, but fostering leisurely onair contacts and it is sort of the secret handshake; we are both SKCC members. We are even supposed to not exchange them if we are using a keyer. It is really a rather chivalrous attitude. It also buils operating skill. I believe it was Earl KD5XB who said that he can participate in 25 wpm DX exchanges because he comprehends 599 TU at 25 wpm, but nothing else. I do too... but that doesnt make me a proficient CW op at 25 wpm.

So it seems to me in that spirit it should not be permitted to manufacture extra contacts by having you adjust the logs later. I think the proper way to do it is to have each K1Y op record two QSOs, only if the appropriate information is exchanged and confirmed, and supply two separate long entries. That is the method I followed.

Whaddya think?


PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:22 pm
by K4VD
Before I answer, let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. I cannot speak for the Centurion award. I'm only referring to the Special Event and the sweeps.

If K1Y/4 (N4ARO) contacts K1Y/5 (AD5VC) and I receive a QSL card from AD5VC confirming the contact the I will give him credit for the contact with K1Y/4. No SKCC numbers need to be exchanged because the special event isn't concerned with SKCC numbers. In this case, Dana contacted K1Y/4 and Dana will get the credit for it towards the sweeps.

The determination of whether a contact qualifies for Centurion is handled by someone else (Gordon, N6WK). If I could influence his decision then I would say that Centurion credit should be given to Dana for both contacts. That's just my opinion.


I get your method.. its the philosophy

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:54 am
by AD5VC
Ok, you raise a distinction that I had not appreciated. I will try to break the Centurion from the Sweep. let me see if I can explain my confusion; which arose from trying to apply the standard used for Centurion awards to that used for the Sweep. In your mind the standards are different. In mine they were the same because of the philosophy of SKCC. The rule about Centurion credit as I understand it is:

Both operators must provide their personal call and SKCC# on the air in order for it to be a valid exchange for Centurion credit.

For instance, if I run KI4SLY I do not earn centurion credit as I understood it.

I applied the same standard to a sweep exchange. In order for me to get credit for an exchange, I must supply my personal call and SKCC #. I do not own K1Y therefore sending its information does not get me credit personally. What you are doing is creating an "implied exchange", where information is assumed but not actually exchanged. I could get credit for this exchange without giving out any personal info, which would be required under the centurion rules. I know that in many events such implied exchanges are not allowed. I assumed the same here.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:23 am
by K4VD
When I started planning the special event I threw my lawyers' hat away and put on my John Wayne hat. I don't know how others run things like this and I'll admit, it is the first time I've run a special event. But, of all the little things I would like changed, this wouldn't be one of them. That still leaves it open for discussion and the membership will dictate how the next event is run.

I took the same approach with the Straight Key Sprint which seems to be pretty successful. I don't require logs for instance. Also, last month some of the K1Y stations operated the sprint. When I posted their results I posted both the K1Y callsign and the operator's callsign.

Does SKCC really have a philosophy about contests and events yet? Centurion is one example of an SKCC activity but I'm not sure it dictates or represents the club's philosophy.

During the forumlation of the rules for both SKS and the Special Event we discussed everything openly. Interestingly, in both cases, it was a very quick progression from idea to implementation. As these activities progressed, we tweaked things a little bit. Next year you'll probably see some major differences in how the anniversary event is run.

Is the special event less special because we recognize the operator of the K1Y station?

From the FCC Fact Sheet on the ARRL website:

When transmitting in conjunction with an event of special significance, an amateur station ("special event station") may transmit the identification announcement using a special event call sign in accord with the procedures detailed below. Substituting a special event call sign for its assigned call sign may help a special event station call attention "on-air" to its participation in the special event and to the unique opportunity for the amateur service community to exchange greetings with the station. Use of these provisions, however, must not detract from the station making the source of its transmissions known to those receiving them. The special event station must also transmit its assigned call sign at least once per hour during such operation.

We've asked all K1Y stations to identify their primary callsign once an hour. I interpret this as meaning the primary callsign is the "real" callsign and the special event call is something that attracts attention. Another distinction, the primary callsign appears on a license, the special event callsign does not. The FCC seems to recognize the callsign of the operator as being the real callsign. If I interpret this correctly, I think I'm correct in the way we are running the special event.

As I mentioned, I cannot speak for Gordon who runs the Centurion program. However, based on the above, I think he would be fully justified in giving credit for the primary call and also, as part of the celebration, giving credit for the K1Y callsign. I seem to remember a post from him early on that granted the special status for K1Y.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:00 pm
by N7YA
For what its worth, ever since this discussion started on the list, the K1Y ops i had worked or heard all have started sending name, call and skcc# with every qso, so have i. It just makes sense to me to know who im talking to and the other op may want to know too, and since we can gain centurion credit for technically working an SKCC member while that member is operating K1Y, everyone seems to be picking up on the exchange. I know the discussion is a bit more detailed than this, but i just wanted to add to the pile, in case you were interested or had noticed this too.